tv The Dylan Ratigan Show MSNBC July 14, 2011 4:00pm-5:00pm EDT
discussion involve add compromise. what an idiot. >> an outrage. i love you all the same, mr. bashir. talk to you tomorrow. our show begins right now. well, for the umpteenth day in a row the showdown in the white house continues, in less than 15 minutes, ladies and gentlemen, round five of the budget meeting battle begins anew. it's thursday, my name is dylan. a nice day in new york today. summer, july. what the heck. but on the countryfront it looks a bit like this. pro wrestling reach add new level. in one corner, barack obama. and in the other -- republican majority leader eric cantor -- a little less than 24 hours ago, round four, the battle of obama and cantor apparently had a stare dourn that ended with some saying the president told eric do not call
my bluff. i'm not bluffing and i will risk my presidency on a deal to raise the debt ceiling. what about jobs? anybody? no. forget that. today in add events around 5:00, duelling conferences, floor speeches, high drama. >> the house majority leader eric cantor shown he shouldn't even be at the table and it was childish. >> if the president wants to threaten seniors or veterans or rattle the world economy pretending he can't pay our bills, he, of course, can do that. but he's not going to implicate republicans in these efforts. >> so now what? for that our man on the scene, mike viqueira. any talk of getting rid of this taxes versus austerity debate and getting on with the debt restructuring we need here? >> reporter: no, no. >> incidentally, that was rock 'em sock 'em robots, not pro wrestling. >> i get confused.
>> reporter: i'm a child of the '60s. no hallelujah day expected. the initial meeting last thursday. the fifth since the president told everybody last sunday 0 bling your b bring your bottom line. they brought them, but nowhere near meshing, everybody continues to talk past each other. taxes have been on the table today. preliminary discussions among staffers. we expect taxes or revenues as republicans called them to be back on the table again today. the prospect or the idea that any revenue should be met net neutral. should not raise any money. there should not be any net increase in tax rates at all. today secretary of the treasury tim geithner on the hill speaking behind closed doors to a group of senators giving a gloom and doom scenario about why this is so important. everybody seems to be convinced from mitch mcconnell to jane boehner august 2nd is the real date. everybody saying a small cadre
of fiscal conservative tea partiers in the house saying it's a lie, one of they said and they simply don't believe it. john boehner, eric cantor, talk how they've been at each other the throats behind the scene, stabbing each other in the back. today a public reconciliation, a demonstration, not say they were fighting to begin with, boehner putting his arm around cantor saying, we are in this foxhole together. meanwhile, mitch mcconnell, yesterday, i would have buried it, dylan, his idea to have three installments making democrats vote in favor of it essentially leading up to next year's election, but it's got new currencies today. people talking about a real possibility, including grover norquist, people have heard of pimm had. a grand pooh-bah of taxes and republicans making sure they don't vote for tax increases whatsoever. >> we'll talk to joe kline. it's brilliant marketing, terrible policy. i expect he's right.
before we get into things with him i bid you adieu, mike and turn to one of our representatives in country. one major area of the debt talk contention, obviously, entitlement spending. insist there's won't be votes for the medicare professional of the president. how much leverage do you feel you have to protect medicare from these talks? >> we have considerable leverage, because nobody thinks that even if there's an agreement that boehner and cantor can produce more than 100 or 120 republican votes because tea party will not vote tore any increase in the debt ceiling whatsoever. 218 is a majority, need at least 100 or more democratic votes before an agreement comes forward and there won't be those votes if there's any real reductions to benefits of social security or medicare. >> that applies to both social security and medicare? >> absolutely. can we talk a little bit about
the insanity of the way the default is set up? in other words, it's clear there's all this fearmongering or maybe it's real, nobody knows. we won't pay the senior, won't pay the veteran. close the national park, all these things come out as we approach, but i don't think people comprehend is the falling. if you connect the dots with the no deal on august 2nd, right, and basically move from that to what the treasury would do. immediately guarantee all bond payments. the first thing that happens, soon as there's a default or past this date, treasury says every bond gets paid, interest paid, money to pay it but triage everything else. as a result of the triage of everything else you basically create instant austerity. a total deprivation of resources across the entire economic structure in order to protect the bond market. ironically the bonds are getting stronger, because people are fleeing to hide there. thinking there's a default. in the end game, you've got to raise the debt ceiling.
in other words tlshs is no scenario under which the debt creel sdg not get raised. you can't avoid it. >> the debt creel hag to get raised because what no one is pointing out, the debt creel hag nothi ceiling has nothing to do with future expenditures. it's for debt already incurred by decisions four, five years ago, mostly by republican congress and president. it's like having a nice, big dinner with a few friends at the restaurant and then saying we're not going to pay the bill. that's what not raising the debt ceiling is. >> and when you look who we owe the money to, 44%, the biggest percentage of our debt is owed to the federal reserve, which is -- if we're going to not pay debt, instead of not paying social security or veterans, why not just pay the federal reserve since we're subsidizing the banking system anyway? >> you could do that but i gang ter wouldn't get you very far. it might get you a few days.
the problem is that -- if you don't raise the debt ceiling shortly after august 2eneden the secretary of the treasury is faced with a choice of breaking the law. the question, which law? one law says the debt ceiling says you can't borrow to pay the bills. but the anti-impoundment act of 1974 says you must pay the bills and you must spend the money congress appropriated. you can't not spend that money. >> you must not -- like being told you must not think about the white elephant in the middle of the room now? >> it's an impossibility. either you -- you spend the money that congress and -- in the budget we're living under now passed by what was commanding you to spend or in which case borrow, breaking the debt ceiling. or don't borrow and don't spend the money congress commanded you to spend. either way you're breaking the law. a real problem. the only way out of that if you, in fact, don't raise the debt ceiling is to, for the president
to say, i don't know he would, but if he was to say and he'd have good grounds in saying it, that the debt ceiling law is unconstitutional because it's against section 4 of the 14th amendment which says the public debt of united states shall not be questioned. that would be a heck of a thing to do. >> indeed. hopefully we'll avoid it, although the way this thing is going, i'm not making bets. congressman, thanks for the time. >> thank you. >> and as we turn our attention to the republican party, which is clearly missing a unified voice. at least among the political community. is it john boehner, mitch mcconnell, eric cantor or grover norquist? who knew the invisible hand had a name? he's the guy who backed the party into a corner using the pouter of public opinion and very effective marketing to force all so-called conservatives -- i emphasize so-called. i don't see what's conservative about recklessly spending this country into a disaster the past ten years but they like to call themselves conservatives, as
such sign things like no new tax plemps, big macho guys. and going to blow all the money in a bunch of wars or bailouts for the banks. joe kline, writes about this in the new edition of "time" magazine. quote from your article, one serious problem with norquist anti-tax. fetishism, makes more sense as a marketing ploy than public policy. how damaging is it to the quality of the debate we could be having that something like this exists? >> this is a golden age of anything, it's the golden age of marketing. you know, grover norquist is essentially a former dweeb. you know, a high school -- he came up with the idea for this pledge when he was in high school. what were you doing in high school? i was having a lot more fun than coming up with no taxes? >> drinking beer in the woods, i is a spent. >> yes. >> very much so. but, grover was not. grover was thinking about, how do you brand the republican
party? something different than the democratic party and the idea is, we'll be against taxes. and now he's reached the point where he has all but six members of the house of representatives who have signed this pledge and all but seven of the 48 republican senators. and so when eric cantor, you know, does what he does, he is following grover norquist all this cliff. >> at the same time, if you look again at the debt we actually owe, the $14 trillion and look at tax resolutions in place, austerity resolutions debated, they're insulteding when you look at the actual amount of debt we have. >> right. it's clear we did it in world war ii, after the civil war, with the brady bond in latin america. and a restructuring for america and the sovereign nations of the world is clearly in order it clearly is going to happen if not this year, if not the year after that if not the year after that, the year after that, because greece can't pay its bills, america can't pay its bills. the bills ain't getting paid.
the question, how long longer where the american people put up with a charade of being taxed or have austerity measures imposed when the only real solution is absolutely debt restructuring? >> the amazing thing about this, and i've been doing this for too many years now, but nobody knows what this debt ceiling is about. out in america, or even in washington. you just heard congressman, did you understand what he was saying? i had no idea. >> legal and legal. that's illegal. >> nobody know what's will happen. it is a formality, passed again and again and again by democrats and republican presidents, it is a diversion from the actual lsh l -- from what? >> the fact we need to create jobs. how stupid is this? my argument with the president is he's been playing on the republican side ftd field, indulging long-term debt discussion. as you just said, restructuring, long-term debt, figuring out a way to pay for entitlements is a
major problem we're facing, but right now we're facing the threat of a double dip recession. and what do you do when you're facing that threat is figure how to create jobs now. >> if you create jobs, by the way, you increase tax revenue and reduce the deaf zit. >> sef sit. >> we are getting $5 billion less in taxes than before the wall street housing crash. >> purely from lost jobs? >> purely from lost jobs, lost revenue. >> back to grover norquist. since the subject of your article we can talk about anything, but how -- let's field this. the real debate that should be being had is, how do we create a productive nation? that's the debate, and i could have an opinion. everyone. the president -- >> grover has an opinion. >> how do we have a productive nation? instead of having that conversation, we're trying to squeeze blood from a stone through either increasing taxation and/or creating austerity, neither of which will
actually create the productive society at this point that we need. >> it's a silly argument to be having now. but the republican party, this is really interesting as we're watching it unfold. we saw a minor league version of this in 1995 when bob dole and newt gingrich went at each other about shutting down the government. it is the same thing happening again. if they shut down this government, if we lose our credit rating, the public polls say are going to blame the republicans, as they should. because the president is willing to, you know, willing to compromise even on things that jerry nadler doesn't want to compromise on like medicare, but we're locked in this conversation, because of the tea party and because of the no tax pledge and grover norquist is the guy who invented it all. >> and it's absurd we would deprive or seniors, our veterans, our children and our middle class of the prosperity
they so desperately want to work for and are prepared to work for because we're caught in the idiocy of a high school nerd's marketing contest. >> and the amazing thing about this, rube prubens are lock step unified. you see mitch mcconnell. >> like what are we doing here? >> tom coburn is an honorable guy. mitch mcconnell is a very cynical, all powe. he doesn't care about policy and is attacking fellow republicans about this. i've never seen anything like this. >> great to see you. check out joe's article on grover norquist, best served as a future candidate on "dancing with the stars." certainly better up there than involved with american debt and future. still ahead here is common sense failing us? a provocative new tape on how we solve problems. plus, flipping out. americans drawing a line in the sand when it comes to a
summertime favorite, first, america down in the dumps. a small poll number make as big statement about the grover norquists of it all. how did we move past the bickering into a real debate about making america a prubd productive and vibrant nation that doesn't have 20% of people without work? we're coming back and hope you do, too. i couldn't conceive this as a heart attack. the doctor leaned over and said to me, "you just beat the widow-maker." i was put on an aspirin, and it's part of my regimen now. [ male announcer ] be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. go see your doctor now.
act tough. it's incredible. look what's going on. it's tommed el foldo. >> the donald going after republicans el foldo, he says. this for their handling of the debt negotiations and he's in the alone in this disappointment with washington. democrat or republican. a new poll showing america's dissatisfaction with our country's current state of affairs at a two-year low of 16% and to borrow the words of my friend and neighbor senator tom coburn, i want to know who those 16% are! bring in our mega panelists, msnbc political analyst karen finney, republican strategist susan del percio and james williams. how could anybody be satisfied susan? >> they can't be. a lot of us around the table said in january. if republicans think they have a mandate because people believed in what their principles and everything like that, they're being, making a mistake, because they came in for change. they didn't like what they had. they simply went with the other
side and they're going to do it again because nothing is getting done. jobs are not being created. promises aren't going to be kept, which was the number one thing all of these -- democrats would be the flip, no real difference in the parties, frankly. >> can we send susan down to go talk to cantor? the republicans? maybe they'll listen to you. >> cantor and obama. needs to talk to both. have the media at camp david with susan del percio and the president. you guys don't get it. brought in for change. didn't work out. you guys came in for change -- i don't even want to talk about it. here we go. if were you to look at trying to create any form of real debate on the debt, do you see any politician within the power to do it? >> yes. i said it a couple weeks ago. the president of the united states is the only person that can stop this charade from
happening. >> he's responsible for the continuation of this raid, implicit? >> no. shut the damn government down. shut it down. it's not working. so shut it -- close the doors. if you can't go into the grocery store and buy anything worth buying, close it's grocery store. if your government's not giving you what you're paying for, shut it down and maybe everyone go home. >> isn't that the tea party's point? >> that's my point. jimmy's point. i'm not a member of the tea party pop want to shut the government down. clearly, it can't function. shut it down and make these little babies in their 40s and 50s and 60s and some in their 90s, for god's sake, make them go without paychecks. bet they come up with deal? >> they're not the ones going out paychecks. others will be in a lot of pain. >> you're right. >> in other words, it goes to what i was saying in the connect the dots with congressman nadler. we go through default, first thing that happensance guarantee the treasury bond. first thing. then eliminate from there, we're
not paying social security, ot paying the veterans. we're going to close the national parks. do you think this negotiation will be different if the first thing that took a mayor cut was the treasury bond and not the poor people? obvious, the answer is yes. >> what i hope is if you look at numbers, it says what we've been saying around this table for weeks. it's bad for everything. a poll a few weeks ago who do people trust the least? congress. who do they trust the most? the u.s. military. why? they went in, kicked as scht got their job done. congress is not getting their job done. seems until people run into washington with pitchforks ready to take these people down, they're willing to let us go right over the cliff. >> the problem is the danger. the response, you want to get angry, get the pitchfork and run in there. metaphorically we're seeing that with the tea party. the problem is they tend to make it worse, not better. >> here's the thing. at least the tea party people,
they are doing what needs to be done in terms -- i don't agree with them, but they are applying the political pressure and leverage on their member. that's why their members are standing firm. the rest of us need to put the pressure on the people willing to make a deal. truth is, you don't need the freshmen tea partiers to get a deal done. >> obama's compromised. you have to admit. >> wait, wait. >> people are upset. >> what about the -- >> you know, no, no. it's not just obama. no, wait. hold on. you want -- you legitimately, listen, have a conversation then, jimmy. you actually believe that the totality of this, all the obama -- no one's disappointed in obama? >> no. a lot of liberals are disappointed in obama and conservatives up set with the current republican leadership. my point, it's not the fringe i give a damn about. it's the 33% of the american
people that don't care about either party. >> because right now the fringe is frankly holding the republican party hostage. so they won't play. the left wasn't in play for obama. frankly he said, i don't care. >> they're all right bought. right. >> they're done. >> let her finish, quick. we got time. >> holding them hostage. that's what's raeting the debate. is it a problem? absolutely. they took something as simple as the debt ceilinging done as ginny said, 89 times and decided to put their own agenda trying to slash the budget and convoluted the two things and now have a big mess they felt they were going to get through like they did in december and didn't. now they have to figure out in the next couple of days -- >> republican hostage taking strategies blowing up. >> even lindy graham said, i don't know where we go, so far in the corner. we have -- where are we going to go? >> the speak of the house, boehner, i respect him and like him. he's a smart, smart politician. he doesn't need a single republican vote. to pass a deal. or tea party.
doesn't need a single tea party vote. >> relative, why? >> because he were get a deal with the president of the united states. bring it to the floor. he can put it out of the committee, have it -- voted out with democrats, and consider the senate and -- 48 republican senators to filibuster. >> what's the barrier for that happening? >> i see his speakership is the barrier. unfortunately, he can lose his speakership. >> got it. but his personal political risk is if he does the deal, he runs the risk of losing -- >> yeah. if the guy steps up, i hate to say this, if he steps up and becomes a profile in courage, he probably loses his speakership. that's going to suck because he's actually a pretty good guy. >> an interesting conversation. and i'm going it keep you guys because i like thaw much. figure, what the heck. you're all dresses up. the panel stays. up next, how you'll know if the u.s. valley going to miss its first credit card payment ever. after this.
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what's required here in washington is that politicians understand now's not the time to play game. now's not the time to posture. now is the time to do what's right by the country. >> which must mean they're restructuring all of our debt. sorry. no. a different planet. that new sound from the president before heading into today's debt talks, they want to tax us more or cut our benefits. no one wants to restructure the debt. from fortune 500s to main street the u.s. business sector is pushing congress to raise the debt ceiling in order to have the structural debate that needs to be had in this country, because they stand to lose big, along with everybody else. washington does not change this debt ceiling if they don't, which jimmy pointed out how many times? >> 89 time time.
>> 89 times. >> and if we can't sort this one out what that means for you, if you work for a corporation that gets jacked, they'll fire people, high fewer people. shell's operation, author of "why we hate the oil companies" from an energy insider and founder of citizens for affordable energy. how can you quantify the level of disruption to large corporations from basically screwing with their borrowing costs in this process? and how likely, what are the odds you think that actually happened? >> first off, nice to see you. >> nice to see all of you. >> what business wants most of all is predictability. they've got to have predictability if they're going to spend capital on things of value. and if there isn't predictability they're not going to spend. that's why there's so much joblessness companies aren't spending because they don't trust the environment they're operating in. regulatory, tax, whatever it is. >> restructure all this debt,
how could you? >> right. if, in fact, the government can't operate itself, corporations say i'm staying biz any europe, busy in asia. my american assets, i'm just going to sit on them. not do anything with them, because it's too risky. because i don't know what the certainty will be. the corporations have been through many, many raises in the debt ceiling. it's just par for the course. and let's do it again. i mean, their attitude is do it again, get on with business. business is about making things happen. >> to that end, susan was making that point, republicans went with an explicit strategy, to use the debt ceiling as a leverage point for their particular budget agenda. >> that's the perversity that this country is dealing with called partisanship. they chose a part snship, partisan path forward and don't care who gets hurt or how badly they get hurt they want their agenda. why? because they want the power back. partisanship is about power.
democrats are just as guilty about the quest for power but the people are suffering. business is suffering. we've got so many unemployed in this country because we can't have a government playing with itself back and forth like a theater and the stage dynamics are pretty poor, actually. >> not a good play. >> not even a good play. >> better on 42nd street. >> i jost got back from two weeks in asia. if mesh could see that, why can't we do that? we could. we have the capital sitting on the sidelines to look just like asia. what are we doing? quibbling over billions and trillions which nobody can even count, and we've done this before. we know how to fix this problem. if only we could get the partisanship set aside. >> and stop using this as an opportunity for power dynamics. go ahead, karen. >> given that many in business actually fund the campaigns of a lot of these people that are engaging in these partisan games, why is it that we haven't
heard more publicly from the business community saying, cut the crap. this inxursecurity is hurting everybody. get in there and make a decision. >> retaliation. business is frozen in what they can say because the retaliatory tactics of elected officials on both sides can be vicious. >> meaning relative to tax code, market structure, relative to permitting -- >> right. you want language and bills beneficial to your company. you're not getting that language if you're out there criticizing the author of the bill. like if the oil companies haven't been outspoken not getting permits in the gulf, because if they were, you go to the end of the line to get permits down the road. retaliation a part of politics and that's why they're silent. >> at one point i think you brought up the idea of doing something with energy like with then in system in bringing up the fed. is that a possibility now? coming up with some type of president's advisory board, at least in the energy industry? >> i think, in my book, it's all
about the governance of -- thousand doesn't work. managing energy, the last 40 years we're going down an energy slope towards abyss. my argument. the only way to change that, have a government structure like the monetary structure does an independent regulatory agency which has goorch governors appointed for 14 years. they don't care who's president, which has majority in congress, instead make policy for the country. policy for society. policy for the american economy. >> the other good news, because of a monetary system, they will make people nervous because the federal reserve has ability to invent money, print money, central energy bank cannot print oil. >> no. >> and harder to manipulate. you can't invent oil. >> it takes year, years, to manifest, for solar, wind, geosoil whatever it is. but manage supply side dynamics, with a number are --
>> go ahead. >> you believe the government of the united states of america should play any role whatsoever in energy policy? now, you say set up this board. right? what role should the president of the united states and/or a congress play in energy? >> you have -- energy is so risky. >> every bit of energy -- >> energy is a social good. energy is, a lubricant of the economy. you need have a lot of it in order for energy to be affordable. there is so much at stake from a societal, from an economic, from a national defense security standpoint, that i think government has to have a role, and, anyway, for those who are really free marketers, i have a chapter in the book, free market went away a long time ago. >> sure. >> it's long gone in the free market. and so if you're -- you're already married to the government. try to make the marriage work.
>> we're going to leave it right there, ladies and gentlemen. we are already married to this government, whether any of us -- whether you're a republican, whether you're adom, whether you're an oil man, an independent. make this marriage work. advice from a former ceo at shell. pleasure to see you. thank you very much. jimmy, susan, karen, thank you very much. you guy, great, by the way. >> i watch them a lot. >> they're good. do you have a favorite jt who you do like the best? >> now that i'm retired i can see you all day long. >> do you like one better than the other? >> i just like the controversy. >> smart man. >> smart controversy. coming up, why are americans so worked up? we're back after this. [ female announcer ] experience dual-action power,
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a summer in full swing. inevitably, that one co-worker, pushes the entire envelope just a little too far. new poll shows that the pop no-nos ever the summer go like this. number three, the strapless top. which is important news, because i almost wore one to the show today. coming in as the second biggest no-no, the miniskirt. i should point out, however, there was a significant gap between a percentage of women that felt this way. they did not like the miniskirt, but the men thought it was fine. the miniskirt. as long as it wasn't them. but the number one offenders of co-workers, single fashion statement, thumbs down for office attire in the summer -- flip-flops. apparently seeing your feet is dead last on your colleagues' wish lists. who would have thought inappropriate footwear would be a thing that sends the office into a frenzy?
>> that's a little joke. it's a joke. next, common sense of science. which should you trust next time you have a problem? [ grunts ] [ male announcer ] built like a volkswagen. the 2011 tiguan. [ grunts ] a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain
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want to land and invest money we require you actually have it. but ayoccording to our next gue, bad things happened because we have too much faith in common sense subpoena joining us, yahoo! scientist duncan watts, author of "everything is obvious once you know the answer." how common sense failed us. duncan, a pleasure to meet you. obviously we had this financial crisis, no capital in the system, highly leveraged system in the history of the world since the last financial crisis. how is it that common sense when it comes to these big things, this sort of faith we let our politicians use common sense fails us? >> the problem is when we look back in time as some sort of major event like the financial crisis, we can always sort of pick out warning signs. we can always find people after the fact who were predicting something bad was going to happen and it is going to seem obvious we should have been paying attention to them and not
the other people saying there wasn't a problem. if we look around. >> now at the events we're faced with in the present, it's very confusing. are we in another financial bubble for social networking companies? there's reasonable cases on either side and not at all obvious which is the relevant information we should be paying attention to. >> but with the banking system, isn't the relative information, is there capital? in other words, a banking system is a vimpsimple thing. if there is money in the banking system and there are capital requirements, you have a stable banking system. a high capital requirement, a stable banking system with maybe low output. the argument was, if we reduce the capital requirements then we'll get a really high output because of little capital, and -- i don't see how capital requirements -- seems complicated. >> everything seems like common sense after the fact because we know how things ended. >> i dispute with having capital requirements before the fact? >> uh-huh. >> in other words, would you
like for me to give awe bunyou of money that i don't have? >> well, the problem, i think, with trying to sort of reason from the level of -- >> any of it. >> individual bank balance, how an individual person should balance their budget to how an international system works is one of the problems we have with common sense and we're constantly reasoning what would make sense for me to do right now today and applying that to sort of complex interactive system that spans millions of people and institutions and the same reasonings i make in the book. they don't necessarily make for these complex economic and social systems. >> take a listen to a friend of ours, a neuroscientist we had on recently talking about the working of the brain and whether our politicians are using common sense. take a listen to his analysis. >> well, it turns out one of the biggest battles in the brain is between parts of your brain that care about short-term instant
gratification and those parts that care about long-term deliberative reasoning decision-making. when somebody make as marital promise -- >> tell me about it. >> the long-term parts of their brain really means it but there is short term temptations. >> how does that -- everything should understand, short-term desire from anything from a chocolate cake to a sports car, to a long-term interest, and how does that sort of battle between short term and long term which we see in played in your view? >> the point he's making, the way we think about how we behave is different from how we actually think. when we think how he behave, we focus on a conscious rational level, we're weighing and saying -- this is how we would like to think we behave. something taught what we should aspire to. all of this research, in
neuroscience and psychology, is showing that in fact there's been this sort of vast labyrinth underneath this conscious level affecting how we behave and when we try to anticipate behavior we tend to ignore these factors and this constantly leads us to make erroneous positions. >> you believe twitter, facebook the rest of it, will actually give us the reinsight into human behavior as opposed to our thee theoretical view of how we behave? >> the point in history is that t kinds of things scientists have wanted to study for centuries but unable to because they couldn't measure them are becoming vizable as a result of everybody migrating personal and social and economic activity online and leaving these sort of enormous number of digital traces behind. to us it's sort of like the invention of the telescope. 300 years ago, galileo turned
the telescope on jupiter and sees the moons of jupiter for the first time. relative of sciences. thought and exciting thought for us, social science kinds of discovered its telescope and the implications are yet to be determined but are very exciting. >> what if we find out most human decisions are made for short-term gratification based on impulse and fear of avoidance and pain avoidance? >> we're going to find it's always going to be some of each. this is the thing. in all the social science, no whatter what your hypothesis is, you're always going to be wrong. >> the point of the neuroscientist was, there is no american people, because everybody's brain is like a fingerprint that is unique, your brain is your brain. my brain is my brain. everybody watching, everybody in this room, different brains, like we have different fingerprints. there is no american people. there is no people? >> a really important point, because we have a tendency to talk about cultural or political parties. >> people want. >> as if individual people.
again, complex systems of many heterogeneous people interacting with each other, paying attention to things going on in the environment and we sort of subsoup with, bury all of that complexity in the language we use. we talk about the sentiment of the stock market. it's meaningless the stock market doesn't have meaning. it's not a feeling. we uses this to try to make sense of the world and the paradox i come back to over and over in the book, our ability to make things seem sensible prevent us from understanding because it's suppressing off of this complexity. >> we don't want to deal with the fact there is no american people. my common sense may not be the same as your, same the da, da, da, whatever it is. >> in fact, one of the defining features of common sense. it is not common. it's shared, it is common only to the extent that we share the same set of assumptions about the world, and as is evident from the political debates watching in our own country and in diversity of views around the world, that is often not the case. >> not to mention we don't even
share the same brain. >> that's right. we -- >> nobody does. >> no. according to our neuroscientists, we don't even have one brain. multiple brains. like a squabbling family. we can't even agree wa we mean, how can we possibly -- >> on this part of conversation, lucky to be shaved and dressed today. >> turns out we're really good at that. we get to do it every single day. >> practice. the book, "everything is obvious once you know the answer." asterisks i like it. duncan, congratulations on the book. thank you for paying us a visit. coming up today, chris matthews. who's just been hot as a darn pistol, i might say, and the latest on the red hot debt debate. oh, it is hot. first, an inspirational rant from mark ames, taking hadn't haircut and don't forget to check out our exclusive podcast with ron paul up on the newly revamped dylan ratigan.com and i always love the opportunity to
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ran from the xooicexiled. our friend and neighbor, perhaps the bond market with an ins strashl message. hem oh, mark. >> thank you, dylan. normally i like to come on the program and deliver a message of hopelessness and despair, but today's different. something about the way this whole deficit crisis is being managed on behalf of the rest of us, the way a handful of sleazy
politicians are holding a hissy fit competition to decide how miserable we're going to be when we hit retirement age, don't get me wrong, we're all going to be miserable in our old age no matter what. i'm really miserable just talking about it. that's not the question. the question they're deciding for us is, how much more miserable can the politicians and their billionaire sponsors make us? in medieval times they held jousting tournaments to decide things like love and marriage. in our time they hold door-slamming contempts to see who can impoverish retirees the most. given all this, i decided there's no point spreading my own little message of hopelessness, that's like backing up over road kill and doing doughnuts on it. i'm giving up on giving up. and instead, i'm ready to do something. the question, of course, is how. well, dylan and joe klein in watching stephen colbert a few weeks ago summed it up for me.
it's all grover norquist. he has the slash and burn school. american tax reforms and thanks to grover republicans are terrified of even whispering about raising taxes on billionaires. this may seem kind of strange but i was actually inspired by grover norquist, because he showed that one person can make a difference, and so here on msnbc's dylan ratigan show, i am announcing formation of a new devastation crisis group called real americans for tax reform. already, ratr is forming a group calmed the foundation on constitutional reforms. together, we're forming this so meet us. now, our platform is simple. we believed in restoring america's greatness, to our golden age under president eisenhower and to it be great we must tax great. that's why real americans for
tax reform believe in restoring president eisenhower's tax rate on the richest 1/10 of americans. since the richest tax rate under president eisenhower was 91%, they're going to feel a little pinch for once, because right now they pay about one-third of that, and for everyone else, the maximum effective tax rate would drop to whatever billionaire pete peterson pays today which is 15%. real americans for tax reform has drawn up a contract sort of pledge that it will badger every democrat to sign. and if they don't sign on, one of our members will dress up in a grover norquist costume and follow them wherever they go. so, america, grab your pitchforks and join the ratrfocrs resolution. >> you said it. we can maybe refine that a little bit. >> i don't know what you're talking ak. >> that will do it for us.